Talk:Light Oil

Heads up on future edits

To @Xenonzeenon

A lot of the corrections I've been doing have been either stylistic or injections of information into strangely constructed sentences.

On the latter point, rather than say "x is used in many different recipes", look through the recipes it's in and pick out some of the more "prominent" use cases. This adds useful information and context which can't be gleamed from "this is used a lot" or something to the same effect. I keep minecraft open as a reference when I'm editing and I quickly sweep through every use case in every machine to make sure I have broader context of the subject at hand while writing. It can also be helpful to literally read the sentence out loud, to see if the sentence flows together well or if you managed to omit a word without noticing.

On the stylistic note, most of it is in the style guide, and the biggest problem seems to just be capitalization. If you're dealing with sentences, like an intro or description or line saying what something can be made in, only the first letter is capitalized unless you're dealing with a special case such as an acronym or proper noun, otherwise it's all lowercase. The footnotes to external wikipedia pages also need the name of the page to be lower case, and the only time bold text is used for the namesake of the page (what the page is about) is for the first instance of it occurring.

Xavier Apoapsis (talk) 06:31, 25 January 2025 (UTC)

I don't know what you are trying to input here, i have seen you do many out of place things that shouldn't even be altered in the first place, don't know where you came from and what your ideals are, but even as a community effort, you still make me think twice on if all of us have our own ways of looking at things. And honestly, some faces are just harder to go along with than others.

You are also acting like if i don't keep my Minecraft open and don't look at recipes, you made pointless alteration to the Liquid Hydrogen page such as changing the recipe layout which was more organized, you wrote "look through the recipes it's in and pick out some of the more "prominent" use cases." like if the most prominent use case wasn't in the Catalytic Reformer. Then proceeded to move the Chemical Plant recipe upwards and leave the more unorganized part of the Reformer below.

And also, a issue i have seen you do multiple times is changing "5.0kTU and 10.0kHE per bucket" to "5.0kTU or 10.0kHE per bucket", TU is burning energy and HE is normal energy that you store, of course, both cannot be used at the same time, the only machines fluids can be burned on are the Fluid Burner and the Wood-Burning Generator at fluid mode.

But you have changed many things even from "chemical plant" to "chemical factory" (??????) for absolutely no reason, and even added stuff that, once again, wouldn't need to be altered in the first place. I have never studied English in my life (other than in school of course, but in 90% of the time i already knew what the teacher was talking about), but only learned from it since 2016, so don't expect me to know a lot about whatever counterparts we have here in the Portuguese subject in my country. But even from that, it didn't stop me from having a great evolution in spelling and talking for many years now, yeah i still make mistakes, but i can't think if what you are doing is intentional or not.

I have talked to Mellow and he wants me to do a public case, but it goes through one ear and goes out in the other. I am trying to change the mind on why doing what you others are trying to do is not good, and i have already talked to some friends and they think the idea you are trying to bring is gonna indeed make things harder, you just don't realize it. If wanting to make a "case" means talking out what i have to say or maybe doing a voting on #official-ntm-wiki, which i think the more capitalized version would win anyways since that's what everyone is used to reading, then my version of strong suggestions goes out here:

1 - The wiki should capitalize all machine names, items, and fluids exactly as they appear in-game. This makes reading smoother and ensures clarity. Keeping them in lowercase makes them look generic rather than specific machines/fluids. The fluid "Light Oil" is already written with capitals in the game/mod itself, so "Light oil" instead is inconsistent and confusing.

2 - Since this is a technical wiki, capitalization helps differentiate important terms such as machines, fluids and items from regular words, even if linked. Lowercasing them makes it harder to skim for key information.

3 - Many wikis follow a convention where item/machine names match their in-game representation exactly. Deviating from that, "Light oil" and "industrial solidification machine" and many other things lowercased instead of just making it "Light Oil" or "Industrial Solidification Machine" might mislead newcomers searching for the correct term.

4 - Even though in many NTM parts there are terms in lowercase, we shouldn't deviate totally from it, this isn't Wikipedia at all, we should only take a "Encyclopedia" style and go with it, if it's hard to understand, visit different mod wikis and you will see they take capitalization just fine, of course, respecting when to use lowercase in perhaps less interesting points.

5 - "only the first letter is capitalized unless you're dealing with a special case such as an acronym or proper noun, otherwise it's all lowercase." The target you are taking is making things that are supposed to be differentiated from the rest, such as different fluids or materials, not be differentiated, of course, "linking already helps people see things", but where and why would someone want to see names not be properly capitalized? Inproper capitalization would also make the wiki feel really low quality.

6 - Referring to the thing previously said in topic 5, if you take a look in the Wikipedia itself, it explains how a proper noun is a noun that identifies a single entity and is used to refer to that entity (So things such as actual fluids, materials and such, for example: Schrabidic Acid, Tungsten, Liquid Oxygen, etc.) as distinguished from a common noun, which is a noun that refers to a class of entities (Classes those such as fluids, missiles, machines, etc) and may be used when referring to instances of a specific class (a fluid, these missiles, those machines). So what you basically said is a counterpoint to yourself.

I have contributed here for nearly a full year now, and even when UFFR was active, he possibly understood my situation and just went with it, if he didn't, he wouldn't be thanking my pages and not correcting them in what he thought the better style for the wiki was, because at the start, he did try to convince me of the same thing, but i continued to go on my own and he approved it, so i don't understand how it's easy for you guys to think the "proper writing style" is what the players are gonna want for a wiki (and probably, those same players have read other wikis) and even call it a "improvement" rather than acknowledging the fact that this is just making things harder for newcomers and other players.

If this is a community effort, made by players, for players, if those same players who are making the wiki know how the in-game style of text is then why act like they aren't and name things unproperly? Who brainwashed you people? I don't want to leave or even be kicked from the team, as i know this wiki isn't even halfway done and i have made valuable contributions to the wiki which have been thanked from UFFR himself, he knew i entered the wiki to be someone who would change it forever, for all the players of NTM, and then now, after almost a whole year of doing the same thing, this "lowercasing" topic has come to tone on the wiki scenario and even if i'm alone on this in our side, i have talked to other people as i once said at the start of this reply and they also think what you people are trying to do is wrong. And i want to continue contributing being grateful for actually helping rather than being accused of being a "bad team player" and not going according the "style guide", which is incorrect and should be strongly changed to accomodate me, the players, and the other contributors that might come after me.

Thanks for maybe reading my message, and i hope to have told everything i possibly could from being "dogpiled" on.

Xenonzeenon

@Xavier Apoapsis @Mellow Xenonzeenon (talk) 16:15, 25 January 2025 (UTC)

1 and 2 - Since these are basically the same I'll address them together. These things would not be capitalized in normal speech and while the differentiation is true, it is minimal at best and not necessary if you actually read it and don't speed-read the entire document. And the style guide also clearly states the capitalization rules. So far I think you're the only person who has complained about this.

3 - Their in-game representation is not bound by the same grammatical rules as regular speech, there also is no punctuation or grammar concerns, no requirement for complete sentences, that is not the case here. How a difference in capitalization of a machine name of fluid which is not an acronym is not something I understand.

4 - Other wikis can do as they please, our style guide was discussed at length between administrators and multiple contributors and they decided to follow those conventions, and you are obliged to as well.

5 - The style guide is based upon normal speech, so in fact, by following it's format, they are properly capitalized, not only by the style guide's definitions but by actual ones as well. So improper capitalization is not a concern.

6 - It does in-fact specify a single entity. However, it is single in terms of only one of them exists, not single as in there is one before you. There is no single schrabidic acid. Yes, there is only one fluid known as such, but there isn't a single container full of it, capitalizing this would be like capitalizing milk.

I'm not going to speak for UFFR, but when the wiki was starting we were eager for people to move from the old wiki to this one, and were grateful for all the help we could get. I would not however be confident in saying that just because he thanked you for your pages that he completely and wholly approved of your precise style, though I am open to @UFFR correcting me if I'm wrong. I would also avoid assuming he knew anything about your plans for the wiki unless you overtly discussed it with him. Regardless, what players want is something which differs from player to player, and no one method would satisfy all of them. However I don't see how this style of writing would seriously hamper anyone reading it.

I've understood your main point to be that the style guide is "incorrect" and causes the wiki to be more difficult to read as a result, but I still don't see any real reason you've given as to why that is short of someone not recognizing the name of a item/fluid/machine when they look at it if it has not been capitalized, which seems a bit ridiculous and insulting to the average player. Calling us "brainwashed" isn't exactly kind either, considering how concerned you are about remaining here, is an interesting choice of words. I didn't write the style guide, I'm simply following it, so issues you have with my corrections can be directed to it, not me. If you're incapable of following a simple list of rules, we don't want you, and good luck finding someone who does. Xavier Apoapsis (talk) 12:53, 26 January 2025 (UTC)

Ok, sure, i guess.

Not really accepting my defeat, but don't take this as one. But, if something is asked by players about the writing style, is it gonna be revised again? Because as you said, i'm the only person so far who has complained about this, but nothing tells us if in the future there might be people who also might see it and take it like i did, possibly by asking in #wiki-feedback, of course, one might not be enough, but maybe if more started to tell something about it, that would change the mind about the writing style?

I'm also not telling that will happen, just that it can, because even if we have administrators and contributors, the players have the most special place in the wiki community. That is not of my power or anyone in the team, so yeah, take it as a possibility.

Also, you not seeing any "real reason" i've given to why it is bad, and that it is a "bit ridiculous and insulting to the average player", is because the majority of them have possibly read fandom pages of the old wiki, or many other wikis out there and have gotten "used" to the normal capitalization of things, so i got and still am concerned in a near future people might tell something about it, making the new wiki feel low quality, maybe even, sorry for the words, but "written by a child" (just an example i kept thinking about) that doesn't know alot about what they are doing, even if the many parts of the wiki isn't about writing, it's still a thing we can consider.

I also never said i am incapable of following a simple list of rules, and even though i said not very kind stuff, it wasn't very cool from your part to simply say "we don't want you", because from what i said, i want to remain here, yes, it was a very interesting choice of words, but the whole reason i want to stay here is because i know i still have a lot to do and i like to do what i do, we don't have that many contributors in the team, and i said some time before, i've been basically a one manned army in the fluid front for a pretty long time, with valuable things done since the very start, so i was concerned about remaining here because i didn't want to get kicked from the team which i have been for a long time part of, for having my own opinion and free speech, which i think would have been a pretty contradictory thing to have been done, for own reasons. I still have lots of ideas for this wiki which can have value in the future and want to share it.

Now i will finish this article that has been going for a long time, but everything that i said here, please take it to word, i'm going to continue my job. Xenonzeenon (talk) 20:14, 26 January 2025 (UTC)